Monday, July 9, 2012

340LPH Fuel Pumps for $19.50...yes, really!

UPDATE 7-9-2012 (12:58pm EDT)
Aeromotive and WAP Performance have mutually agreed that WAP Performance is not the supplier to Aeromotive for their fuel pumps.  Nonetheless, this email could open the potential that counterfeit fuel pumps are readily available.  The original post remains below.

Indeed, $19.50 per fuel pump.  We were contacted by a Chinese manufacturer of fuel pumps, and with a little encouraging conversation this manufacturer disclosed they were the maker of "rebranded" fuel pumps from two of our competitors.  Don't take our word for it...the proof is below:

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jack" <>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 3:56am
Subject: Fw: tuning parts

I am hoping you might be able to help me with my enquiry. I am trying to find the responsible buyer in your purchasing department that is responsible for the commodity:HIGH FLOW FUEL PUMP.
Would you know who this person may be?
Thank you and best regards
Any more info,pls visit our web:
Best Regards
Sarah Cheng
ZheJiang Warranty Care Auto Parts Co,.Ltd
Add.:No.155, Yucang West Road, Economic and Technical
Development Zone, Zhejiang, China
Tel/Cp.: 86-013958892595
Fax: 86-577-56998972

----- Original Message -----
To: Jack
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 8:38am
Subject: RE: Fw: tuning parts

Thank you for contacting us. I am interested in the 340lph pump. Please send your published performance data for this pump and pricing.

Can you rebrand the pump?

Additionally, we would like a sample of this 340lph pump to validate the performance during operating conditions.

Best Regards,
Justin Fore
Fore Innovations, LLC
400 Venture Drive, Suite D
South Daytona, FL 32119

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jack" <>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 8:46am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

Thanks Justin
yes,now we are available 4 styles,incl gss340 gss341 gss342 gss340M. They all come with flow 320-340lph at 43psi (13.5V). also,we can engrave you company logo on the pump body.  meanwhile,you can check the details from Aeromotive 340LPH(you can buy samples to compare and test).
For 4 styles that the same price say usd19.50 with universial kits.

----- Original Message -----
To: Jack
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:13am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

Okay, just to are the manufacturer of the Aeromotive 340LPH?

Confirm that our price is 19.50USD per many must I order to get that price?

Lastly, what is the leadtime?

Thank you,
Justin Fore

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jack" <>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 9:15am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

usually we require the MOQ is 50pcs.(if order amount up to 500pcs ,the price is usd19.00)
if order amount like 50-500,the production time is around 15days.

----- Original Message -----
To: Jack
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:30am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

Okay, good to know. Can you take credit card payment?  Last question: are you the manufacturer of this pump as well?

Thank you,
Justin Fore

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jack" <>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 9:35am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

sorry,we just accept paypal,western union or bank transfer.
yes,those are the same pumps just the body color. pls see attached.thanks
now,aeromotive pump is red top and bottom with black casing(also,we only make this color to aero..)

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jack" <>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:00am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

pls confirm how many samples you will be need ?
now,we have some red top with black casing in stock.

----- Original Message -----
To: Jack
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

But we're going to pass. These pumps have not lived up to our requirements in elevated operating temperatures or E85 fuels.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jack" <>
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:42am
Subject: Re: Fw: tuning parts

okay,it doesn't matter.
the 340lph didn\t work with e85 now(but will be improved around 1-2months).  also,now we do the 290lph pump that work with e85,you can check that DW300 FUEL PUMP(The pump is come from my friend factory.)

Tuesday, July 3, 2012

Fore Precision is Out...But Who is In?

1200+ rear wheel horsepower cars using OEM factory fuel tanks…..unheard of until Fore Precision Works exploded on the market with the technology to make it happen.  That first generation of performance fuel systems was an engineering success, but there was room for considerable improvement.  Many of the products had flaws that were exposed over a period of time.

After months and years of Fore Precision fuel hats sitting in fuel tanks full of race fuel, E85, and octane boosted pump gas, problems showed their ugly head.  Hoses failed or eroded...we came to find out that highly coveted SAEJ30R10 fuel hose is permeated by the aggressive fuels, erodes, and separates from it's reinforcement, causing eventual failure.

Obviously the design must accommodate electrical circuits to provide electricity to the fuel pumps.  The Fore Precision designs simply had wire passing through the fuel hat.  That was a problem because fuel was able to climb up the inside of the wire like a tree root (capillary action) which created fuel smells and leaks.  The present generation of Fore Innovation fuel hats has a hermetic wire seal so there is no possibility of fuel leaks.

Fore Precision allowed internet parts retailers with no technical expertise to sell the product to end users.  Internet parts retailers are very protective of the client database, so they will always serve as the "middle man" in any technical support situation.  Fuel supply and delivery is a technical product, and anybody selling should have a fluid mechanics background to properly support their customers.

When Fore Precision Works went out of business, there became a void in the performance fuel system market and several companies rushed to knock off the products.  Unfortunately, it appears that they just copied the old products without any improvements. (some even took shortcuts)  This lack of product enhancement indicates a lack of understanding for the engineering and technical requirements of fuel systems. In these knock off products, we have seen improperly designed o-ring glands, use of submersible fuel hose, improperly designed baffles, incorrect testing procedures, and misunderstanding of basic fuel system knowledge.

Fore Innovations has produced a next generation product line that corrects problems and enhances the overall design.  Our ideal customers are end users and speed shops were we can directly interface with whoever is installing the products.  When you buy from us, you get:
  • Interacting components that are designed and made to work together. (not rebranded components from a variety of manufacturers)  In the case we have to source a component from a different manufacturer, we promise it will fit.
  • You won't spend money on what you don't need.  We want your referral business, so it is in our best interest to take care of our customers.  For instance, we're not going to sell you big pumps and fuel rails if you don't need them.  Conversely, we'll advise if you're going down a road that is going to cause problems such as with calibration or fuel pump life.
  • You can speak directly to the engineer who designed the product(s) you are interested.  There are infinite fuel problems and solutions...only a company with a high level of technical knowledge can truly support all situations.  We have two experienced engineers on staff to support any customer with fuel system needs.
  • If you break something, we can fix it.  (of course, since we make it!)  It is rare, but once in a while somebody destroys something during installation...we'll get you through it.

Monday, June 18, 2012

E85 Attack on Metals and Rubbers

In regards to the blog title, we are more specifically interested in the materials used inside automotive fuel tanks. (NOT marine tanks) This includes fuel pumps, filters, tanks, level senders, fasteners, wiring, etc. There are tons of disinfomation scattered across the internet on this subject...based on ignorance, misdiagnosis, and corporate interest. So, let's set it straight:

Concern #1: Corrosion

The big concern is galvanic corrosion.  In layman's terms, this is where dissimilar metals are immersed in a conductive solution (electrolyte) that causes at least one metal to corrode.  (corrosion of metal in salt water)  In automotive fuel tanks, we typically have a combination of steel, aluminum, copper, brass, and stainless steel.

The concern is that E85 could possibly have a similar affect as filling your fuel tank with salt water.  In order to analyze this concern, let's look at the electrical conductivity of our suspects:

LIQUID                                           CONDUCTIVITY (S/m, higher number is more conductive=BAD) 
water                                0.0005 to 0.05
seawater                           4.8
gasoline                            0.0000000000000001
E85                                   0.0000000000074
glass                                 0.00000000001

(fellow nerds:  pardon my omission of scientific notation in the table...but I felt the presence of all the zeros helps correlate the relationships)

Indeed, E85 has a higher conductivity than gasoline.  However, it is hardly enough to be a concern.  E85 has similar conductivity to glass, which is often used as an insulator.  Therefore, E85 is not an electrolyte and galvanic corrosion cannot occur.  This is why we don't bother to fool our customers with "anodizing" or "coating" for E85 compatibility with our in-tank fuel modules.  If someone is selling you this, beware.

Concern #2: Chemical Compatiblity with Rubber and Seals

Many hoses and o-rings are commonly made from NBR, nitrile, or Buna-N rubber.  It is cheap and has descent chemical and temperature resistance.  NBR is shown to have "good" chemical resistance to gasoline and E85.  However, in our experience, NBR is not adequate for E85, especially in elevated temperatures in high performance automobiles.

In terms of seals, stick with Viton.  If you're buying o-ring type fuel fittings, make sure they have Viton o-rings.  That is, unless you're okay with risking your expensive motor over $20 in o-rings.

SAE J30R10 Fuel Hose
This submersible hose is generally constructed from reinforced rubber core with a flourocarbon inner and outer shield.  The flourocarbon shields are supposed to "protect" the core from gasoline.  Otherwise, the fuel will permeate (or soak in) the rubber core, causing it to expand and weaken the bond with the reinforcing fabric.  Safe?  Read on:

First of all, the SAE J30R10 hose specification does not include E85.  Let me repeat that:  SAE J30R10 is not for E85.  The ethanol molecule is MUCH smaller than "gasoline" molecules, which allow E85 to permeate easier than gasoline.

Let's assume the flourocarbon shields could prevent the permeation of E85.  Even so, there is no flourocarbon "shield" on the ends of the hose, because the hose has been cut.   If the hose end(s) are submerged, the fuel will permeate through the end of the hose, past the hose clamp, into the pressurized region, causing the rubber to expand, separate from the reinforcement, and eventually lead to failure.

Simple, avoid the use SAE J30R10 hose in E85. 

P.S.  race gas does the same thing to SAE J30R10 hose ;)

Saturday, June 2, 2012

GT500 Fuel Hat

Shipping this Tuesday is our GT500 fuel hat.  We call it the S197-S fuel hat, where the -S indicates it is for the steel tank cars.  It will fit 2005-2010 Mustang GTs and 2007-2012 GT500s.  It is a ground-up redesign of the previous version from Fore Precision...making it more reliable, better performing, and easier to install.

We needed to fix two major problems from the old design.  First, we needed to completely eliminate the SAE J30R10 in-tank fuel hose.  This "submersible" hose simply does not hold up to race gas or E85.  So, we eliminated this hose with our snap lock o-ring seats for the fuel pump outlets.

Second, the old Fore Precision fuel hats were plagued with fuel smells and leaks in the Spring/Summer.  We found the leaks were coming from the inside of the wire.  The stranded wires act like tree roots, and the higher temperatures in the warm months aggravated the issue.  The new design incorporates an integrated hermetic wire seal to ensure fuel leaks/smells never happen.

Performance comes from pump availability.  Dual DCSS405s (that actually flow 440 lph each) easily outperform the old triple 255 setup.  Additionally, GT Supercar pumps and GSS342 pumps can also be installed in the new hat.

The new design is more compact with dual pumps and integrated venturi disharge and return bore.  There are no "tubes" hanging down in the fuel tank like the old design.  The in-tank crossover connector maintains the factory orientation.  There is only one feed and one return port on the top of the hat.  (no y-blocks required)

We can only show a little about how we make our fuel hats.  We do all our design in Solidworks.  Our five axis mill programming is done with HSMWorks, and our mill/turn programming is done with Edgecam.  Here are some screenshots of the assembled fuel hat:

gt500 fuel hat  

Here is a picture of a partially assembled hat, showing just the machined parts.

Below is a screenshot of the manifold's five axis toolpaths.  This is HSMWorks, which runs inside Solidworks.  The manifold itself has 97 machining operations, uses 21 different tools, and requires 18 different orientations.

...but we accomplish all that by clamping the part only twice ;)  Here is what happens in 23 minutes:

Thursday, May 17, 2012

405 vs 465 LPH Pumps...The Real Comparison

Since TI Automotive (owner of Walbro) released the fabulous 405 lph DCSS fuel pump last year, many of us have long awaited the "465 lph" version.  The DCSS465 promised higher performance, complete E85 compatibility, same dimensions as the 405, and slightly higher sounded almost too good to be true.  See for yourself:

The 405 can expect a 15% shorter life expectancy in E85 compared to the 465.  Considering the 465 has an average life expectancy of 10,000 hours in E85, we can expect the 405 to live 8,500 hours in the "corn."  If you drive your car an average of 45mph, that is still 382,500 miles.  Let's face it, the 405 is absolutely fine in E85.

The 465 barely outperforms the be accurate, the margin is only 5%.  Why you ask?  The 405's published performance is 405 lph in E85.  The 465's rating of 465 lph is rated for gasoline.  This is NOT a fair comparison.  Let's even the playing field:

In gasoline at 40psi and 13.5 volts:
"405" flows 440 lph
"465" flows 465 lph

In E85 at 40psi and 13.5 volts:
"405" flows 405 lph
"465" flows 430 lph

In the practical sense, the 465 outperforms the 405 by only 5% under most conditions.


The upper and lower diameters are the same at 39mm and 50mm, respectively.  The 465 comes with a worthless Delphi connector that you're going to snip off (leaving you with wire ends to splice) whereas the 405 comes with more convenient male quick disconnect terminals.  Both have a outlet barb for 3/8" hose.  The biggest difference between the two pumps is the inlet to outlet length.  The 465 is nearly 1/2 inch longer...not good in the tight confines of a fuel tank.


DCSS405:  $160
DCSS465:  $220

The 465 costs 37.5% more than the 405.  No need to say more.


We pay almost 40% more for the 465 that gives us 5% more performance with no tangible pump life benefit.  It doesn't sound very promising...unless you really care about that 5% performance increase.  Considering our fuel hats with dual 405s match or outperform nearly every available electric external pump, then we can't see the benefit of offering this pump to our customers.

If you must, we do have both the 405 and 465 in stock:

Sunday, May 13, 2012

E85 and Fuel Filters, The Truth

Paper (cellulose) filter elements is the most practical way to filter your fuel to 10 microns...which is required by fuel injector manufacturers.  Now, some companies are saying paper filter elements cannot be used in E85.

The truth is:  it's been done for many years.  We've been doing it for several years ourselves.

First of all, none of the "high performance automotive" companies that sell aftermarket fuel filters actual make their own filter elements.  Only a few companies in the U.S. make these, we are likely buying our filter elements from the same company as our competitor.  (that says "don't run E85.")

I started with a military spec aircraft fuel filter...the one that caught my eye is good for almost 1400 liters/hour, then I designed a housing around it.  I took the mil spec for the filter and improved it for E85, which included a Viton o-ring and alcohol compatible epoxy.  The company that manufactures our filter element for us even validated it for E85.  Voila, an E85 compatible fuel filter...wasn't that easy?

The truth is, their fuel pumps can't handle E85.  They even tell their customers to change fuel filter socks every 10 hours!!!  (because their pumps keep burning up)  Since their business relies on selling fuel pumps, they NEED you to run gasoline.  I think they are buying time to figure out how to make their pumps E85 compatible, then they will give the OK to filter E85 with cellulose.

In the meantime, it is okay to use paper filter elements in E85, provided the manufacturer says it is "E85 Compatible."  And my shameless plug, Fore Innovations fuel filters are definitely E85 compatible, if you add the Viton o-ring option.

So, in the meantime, here are some pics of the production of our 10 micron, cellulose element, E85 compatible filter.

Saturday, May 12, 2012

...our first blog post, after carefully considering whether or not to go down blog road.  This is our chance to address all the bad information on automotive fuel systems and components that litter the internet.

Stay tuned...we'll address the myths and what the "experts" say on the forums.  While we're at it, we'll give a glimpse or two into our design and manufacturing processes.

If you have any questions/concerns you would like addressed, send us an email: